ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

Check out this blog post:

The starting point, 2010-03-10: Joint Statement by a Group of Abolitionist Vegan Feminists for International Women's Week

Furthermore, the view that anything a woman chooses to do "empowers" her is simplistic in that it ignores the patriarchal context in which those choices are made. Yes, the women who participate in the campaigns we are criticizing have chosen to do so voluntarily, and some may feel liberated, or feel as if their choices are themselves a challenge to female objectification, and we do recognize that they feel this way. We are simply asking them to seriously consider that these campaigns are both harmful to women as well as ineffective in challenging the exploitation of non-human animals, and that, in view of this, women should no longer support or participate in them.

That was one great text and this is one great excerpt from it. Thank you.

panthera wrote:

Furthermore, the view that anything a woman chooses to do "empowers" her is simplistic in that it ignores the patriarchal context in which those choices are made. Yes, the women who participate in the campaigns we are criticizing have chosen to do so voluntarily, and some may feel liberated, or feel as if their choices are themselves a challenge to female objectification, and we do recognize that they feel this way.

Yes, the feel it, they know it, they think about it... but they are wrong! Right.

Patriarchal, my ass.

Just good ol' social constructionism bunk at its best

We are simply asking them to seriously consider that these campaigns are both harmful to women as well as ineffective in challenging the exploitation of non-human animals, and that, in view of this, women should no longer support or participate in them.

Empirical evidence?

Veganomante, from your reply I conclude that you do not agree with arguments in that statement?

I pretty much agree, and reason why I agree is pretty much summed up in the quote in the first post in this topic.

Hi, teddy bear:

Yes, I pretty much disagree with anything stemming from modern feminists (1). Plus, I disagree with the Standard Social Science Model, which is to say, I think social constructionism (and deconstructionism) are bunk (or woo-woo, to use Shermer's favourite term), which in turn means I think 74.6% of sociology is pseudo-science and, therefore, bunk as well.

Though, when I asked for evidence (empirical, for there's no other kind) I really meant it. That is, I was being honest when asking for it. (2)

I apologize in advance for my floccinaucinihilipilification of the social sciences

Best regards

(1) Although, I realize there are a number of different flavours of feminism. But since they can't even agree on what the hell "feminist theory" is supposed to mean, that is not my issue to resolve.
(2) "[...] we see that the way sex is used to sell things in our patriarchal society reinforces a view of women as commodities." This is a specific assertion about reality and I expect evidence to be presented in favour of such an interpretation. Claims about the "evident logic" or "obviousness" of a given psycho-social dynamic are not enough, because human minds are not (proximate) logic-driven machines. And even if they were, I'm not convinced it would lead to said objectification.

Brilliant. If my boss is ever ignoring me, I’ll just flash him…that ought to work. I mean at least I’ll be getting his attention that I wasn’t getting before, right? And that’s not sexist at all that I’d have to do that in the first place in fact I’d be illustrating my empowerment. (I kid, I can’t help myself.)

Sorry to bring back an oldish thread, but I just thought that the blog post was very interesting.

Feminism aside, I mean you can think modern feminism is a bunch of BS/ pseudo-science bunk (being skeptical isn't a bad thing) and argue that they can’t agree on anything so why bother with it (unlike animal rights activists, where we all agree on everything ) but all that aside I do believe that the blog had some valid points.

She states

Some of the activists defending the use of sex believe that showing our sexuality will call the attention of potential vegans by appealing to their own self image, implying that when they see how sexy being vegan makes us, they will want to become vegan too. This notion is not only misguided but also detrimental to the actual message we should be getting across. Veganism is about animal rights, not about feeling sexy, or having better sex (characteristics we all know have little to do with being vegan or not, but with each individual's lifestyle and well-being) and it is most certainly not about "looking better" than people who eat meat.

I agree with her (us vegans aren’t all “Skinny Bitches” after all). It is missing the point entirely, coming from an “animal rights” organization.

I suppose what concerns me the most with PETA is that they take a serious, sobering issue then throw naked people into the mix and it gets confusing and above all, idiotic. Porn stars holding bunnies against their bare breasts claiming that they’d rather go naked than wear fur. Well, that’s nice and…um, effective (can you give me empirical evidences that suggests that it is in fact effective? ) I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at these pictures and become overwhelm with this gut feeling that perhaps animals should not be used as commodities (sarcasm ends here).

Also they advocate for vegetarianism more often than veganism... and should they be advocating for vegetarianism at all really? This is my own personal issue, nothing to do with the blog.

Lastly, Veganomante, I’m confused as to what you want evidence on. Is it just modern feminism in general you have a problem with? You feel that the post is being unfair to PETA? Is it a number of things? Please, tell me your thoughts.

Anyway, I just google imaged PETA and now I feel like I need to take a shower.

Liz wrote:Sorry to bring back an oldish thread, but I just thought that the blog post was very interesting.

Feel free to comment on any thread! It's great to have more discussion, even if the earlier part took place long ago.

Liz wrote: (unlike animal rights activists, where we all agree on everything )

Liz wrote:Also they advocate for vegetarianism more often than veganism... and should they be advocating for vegetarianism at all really? This is my own personal issue, nothing to do with the blog.

advocating vegetarianism! Aaaargh!!

Liz wrote:You feel that the post is being unfair to PETA? Is it a number of things? Please, tell me your thoughts.

I'll try to get him to get back & respond, but he definitely does not think Peta should be defended. Whether he thinks this particular accusation is valid is to be seen.

I'll try to get him to get back & respond, but he definitely does not think Peta should be defended. Whether he thinks this particular accusation is valid is to be seen.

I don't know anyone on here so I'm clueless about everyone on here.

I was just wondering what his/her take is on PETA. If he likes PETA or supports them that's fine, I just wonder about things and like to hear all views.

Well, nobody on here likes Peta. Basically. Do you?

PETA led me to veganism from vegetarianism so for that I am forever grateful. I saw a video on the dairy industry & felt like I had been hit by a train. In saying that a short time later I saw their campaign on the Sexiest Vegetarian. I was ashamed for them - for sinking so low. As I grow as a vegan & a beginner activist I feel outraged that any animal rights organisation would use sexism / sex to further the cause of ending exploitation & violence against non human animals. Shouldn't the actual event of the abuse & exploitation be enough for their campaigns. Why do they need to be fluffed up? Hard hitting, truthful & explicit is what the world needs.

I loved the article. I have always been a feminist but not an active or an articulate one. I was drawn into the article & learned so much especially the following:-

'Also worth mentioning are the gender issues involved in animal exploitation. The animals exploited specifically for their milk and eggs are, it should be obvious, females being exploited for their reproductive cycles etc etc'

Pretty powerful stuff!