ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

[Faunus]

Hi,

I think that the main reason for speciesism is hierarchy. It is the fact that some person believe them self more powerful than other. Like for some kind of slavery that are not implicated in capitalism (servants...). Then of curs we can find that hierarchy under many forms (capitalism, communism...).

Hello Yavachol! I wasn't ignoring you, I just found myself 'venting' too long and didn't have time to respond to you directly! I welcome your feedback!

To you, Sheepdog, Liberacion-Igualdad (and any other interested persons), I think that the topic for a new thread would not be about economic systems as the cause of speciesism and all of its results - but rather, "What is the source of speciesism"? Or do any of you have a better idea?

This could be quite philosophical in essence, but hopefully void of supernaturalism (i.e., "mans' fall from the grace of God" and all of that nonsense). The Being/Doing/Having framework is only one part of what Werner Erhard used when attempting to define "transformation". He drew from Zen, psychology, and numerous other sources to try to pinpoint why humans are unhappy and unintentionally create suffering for themselves. I am not a Werner Erhard fanatic like some people are, but in the book, "The Transformation of a Man - Werner Erhard - The Founding of est " - W.W.Bartley (Professor of Philosphy) explores his thinking and the foundation of a 3 day workshop called "est" back in the 1980's. I attended and did other workshops related to "transformation". A lot of what Erhard says I can agree with. It does include "the mind state" vs Being, and he uses terms such as our Being as the "field of Everything/Nothing" that I can explain. How he desribes the "mind state" vs Being is astonishing.

I have often used the analogy of a wheel with spokes to describe problems and their sources. However, it does have its limitations. The hub of the wheel could be speciesism, and it is the "core" supporting the spokes of vivesection, hunting, circuses, and numerous other forms of nonhuman exploitation. While welfarists want to attack the individual spokes of the wheel moving through time and space - the abolitionist want to attack and bust out the hub so that all the spokes fall. The wheel can no longer function. Short of that, the wheel will simply replace those spokes as time moves on. There was a time when vivisection or circuses didn't exist, for example - and the distant future could include the newly created spokes of human exploiting other life forms on alien planets. Get the picture?

Enough said for now. What ideas do you any of you have for a new thread? I am all ears.

With respect, Faunus

[sheepdog]

Enough said for now. What ideas do you any of you have for a new thread? I am all ears.

My only suggestion is to avoid discussing what is the cause of what is wrong, which we seem to do endlessly, and concentrate on what could be the cause of what would be right and what it would look like then. I'd rather discuss where we are going and not why we cannot get there.

[Faunus]

Enough said for now. What ideas do you any of you have for a new thread? I am all ears.

My only suggestion is to avoid discussing what is the cause of what is wrong, which we seem to do endlessly, and concentrate on what could be the cause of what would be right and what it would look like then. I'd rather discuss where we are going and not why we cannot get there.

There are threads where people have discussed what brought them to veganism (although I acknowledge that you do not like or use that term for yourself). What keeps people from even considering veganism and anti-speciesism, and what makes people transform either in fast stages or in an eye-blink, has to do with how the subject is presented to them, for one thing. The big conversation-stoppers are the assertion (subtle or overt) of moral superiority if you are vegan, the religious dogma approach (but God really means for us to...), limited presentation of what veganism and anti-speciesism is (health concerns vs. speciesism vs. global warming) and numerous other reasons. People are bombarded and overloaded with information every day about so many things that our approach with the subject is critical. Yet that approach emerges from a context that will either work for some people or not work.

And there are probably just as many reasons why people want examine speciesism and/or adopt vegan & anti-speciesist consciousness and lifestyle. But to me, the presentation of this subject is too much about the PROCESS to many ARA. They are unaware that the process emerges from a context, too confused with results or content. What is that context??? Asserted moral superiority, either overt or subtle? The mindset of "be right - make others wrong"? In reality, does one want to dominate, control, or manipulate?

In our face to face interactions, most communications is non-verbal. People remember you not by the words you say (unless something occasionally is profound and meaningful to them) - but by their assessment of where you are coming from (context/Being). We all need to assess the results or what we HAVE by re-examining where we are coming from (Context/Being).